Historik Forum

[Hektor]

Ich bin grundsätzlich deiner Meinung hinsichtlich des sexuellen Verkehrs mit so jungen Menschen, allerdings muss du ienmal betrachten inwiefern diese Knaben noch als Kindern zu sehen waren. Schau dir doch nur mal die heutige Zeit an wo 13(!) Jährige Jugendliche in Gruppen Frauen vergewaltigen. In Hannover kam es gerade erst zu dem Fall, dass ein 15 Lähriger eine 29 jährige Frau vergewaltigen wollte. Kann man da wirklich noch von Kindern sprechen? Ausserdem muss man klarstellen, dass das Mentor/Schüler Verhältniss der Greichen nicht darauf ausgerichtet war Sex mit Jungen zu haben.

[LCF]

Der thread zeigt vor allem eines: wie schwierig es ist, sich in ein vorchristliches moralisches system, hineinzuversetzen. Auf jeden fall sind´s zwei paar schuhe, was die antiken griechen oder römer dachten- und was wir heute davon halten. Naturgesetze sind weder die altgriechische noch unsere postmodern gebrochene christliche moral.

[Penthesilea]

Ich habe einmal gehört, dass die Römer ihren männlichen Geliebten die Barthaar mit der Pinzette auszupfen ließen, damit die keinen Bart bekamen und "hübsch" blieben.

Also, das hab ich wirklich nur gehört, was davon wahr ist, ist eine andere Sache.

[JKND]

Gibt es eigentlich irgendwelche Primärquellen, die belegen, dass Päderastie in Sparta etwas völlig Normales war?

[anz]

ancient greek pederastia wasnt like todays, that is, rape and child abuse, it was something cultural the modern mind cannot comprehend, the closest we can get is this:

the teenager (NEVER the child, pederasty with a child was even condenmed in ancient greek law) of abouts 15 or 16 years old, would have a much older lover and teacher,who would make the boy a man, would teach him combat, gym, politics, how to behave well as a citizen, how to be responsible, how to be manly etc

the mother and the father of the teenager knew about this and agreed (!)

the sexual relationship was NEVER common gay practice like today, for example, 'doggy style' was not permitted and was considered dirty and low grade type of lovemaking, if one sees ancient greek vases, you can see that they made love by merely touching each other near the thighs (no intercourse of whatever kind).

finally, its not true that 'ancient greek were all gays'' because:

1) the god of sexualism and beauty was female (aphrodite), if the greeks were 'all gay' they would have a male prominent sexual god

2) on greek vases we see NUMEROUS scenes of sexual intercourse between a female and a male, (but also gay scenes), which means ancient greeks more likely were BISEXUALS and NOT GAYS!

3) 2 gods of ancient greeks fought against each other for the beauty of Aphrodite (Ares and Aphrodite's husband, Hephaestus), If ''all greeks were gay'', then why they made up such stories of gods haveing a fight for a woman?

4) the war of troy was (partly) because of a beautifull woman that 2 kings wanted... (is that how gay men behave for beautiful girls? no..)

5) Archilochus, greek ancient poet, speaks in his works about touching his girlfriend, making love etc... (not so gayish..)

6) Achilles obviously had sex with men AND women during trojan war

I think from all this we can derive that ancient greeks were bisexuals and in comparison with todays 'ethics' ,they didnt feel that sex or love with both women and men was anything unusual, on the contrary, they felt love and sex were proof of how good citizens and men they were.